Leading expert and fierce advocate Dr. Karen Tang joins Zibby to discuss her inclusive and essential new resource, IT’S NOT HYSTERIA: Everything You Need to Know About Your Reproductive Health (but Were Never Told). Dr. Tang delves into the gaps in healthcare where women’s pain and concerns are often dismissed—which her book aims to address. She also reflects on her journey into gynecology, her passion for educating, and how she unexpectedly found fame on TikTok, where her videos debunking myths and providing clear explanations about women’s health issues have gone viral. Finally, she delves into the process of writing this book and shares her best advice for aspiring authors.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome Dr. Tank. Thank you so much for coming on. Moms don't have time to read books to discuss It's Not Hysteria, everything you need to know about your reproductive health, but we're never told. Thank you so much. 

Karen: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. 

Zibby: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for this complete resource guide, easy to use, like, fabulous thing that I wish I had had my entire life now that I'm, you know, now I feel like I only have a few sections left.

Karen: Don't say that. 

Zibby: I know. Oh my God. So sad. 

Karen: I tell people it's, you know, it's for whatever phase of life you're in, and you know, people kind of come up back to different sections of different parts of their life. You know, there's like birth control section, fertility section, post menopause, you know, it's all about meeting people where they're at.

And, and people will kind of circle back around to things that they probably weren't expecting later. So, you know. 

Zibby: It's great because it's like, it's like a, Younger people might not even remember what an encyclopedia is, but it's like something that sits on your shelf and you always need to have nearby because you just don't know, and it's better than Googling because it's from an actual, credible person with great advice.

And yeah, sources.

Karen: I was like, there used to be a thing called encyclopedias where you could look up information if you had a question. But yeah, no, that's, that's exactly it. It's just, you know, something where no matter what. you know, whatever random question you might have. Like, I wonder about, you know, like, yeast infections, or I wonder about PCOS.

Like, you can go in there and, like, you know, search for that topic and find it. So that was definitely the idea, Sam. 

Zibby: Perfect. Well, well, well done. 

Karen: It's a little bit more condensed than the encyclopedias, which took up, like, a whole shelf, but. 

Zibby: No, no, no. And it's not boring either, which, you know, not to knock the encyclopedia writers But, you know, this is, um, you know, you put your own spin to even the most clinical stuff, which is one of the gifts that you have, which is great.

Karen: Oh, thank you. Yeah. 

Zibby: First of all, go through your career and how you became this expert on women's reproductive health and all that and how writing the book can dovetailed with your Meteoric TikTok fame, which 

Karen: Oh my gosh. I have to laugh about that. You know, I always say, if you had told me when I was in medical school or residency that, you know, one day you'll be on this thing called TikTok, where you will make videos about, like, weird vaginal myths and, um, you know, about, like, this crazy thing that people were talking about that they were getting wrong, you know, I would have been like, this is crazy.

I I didn't even have Twitter. I didn't have Instagram, nothing. I, I was very much like offline kind of person, but I've always loved teaching. So, you know, I went into OBGYN and women's health knowing that, you know, I love reproductive health. I loved helping women and educating, uh, people. And, you know, later in my training, I discovered I really liked surgery.

So I ended up being a, like a minimally invasive GYN surgeon. I do a lot of operating on things like endometriosis and fibroids. And just in the process of doing that, How often people were having their concerns dismissed. I was oftentimes like the third, fourth, fifth doctor that someone was seeing for these same issues, which, you know, I'm not like some groundbreaking scholar, like offering something that no one else can offer.

I basically just, you know, listening, you know, acknowledging people's concerns, like, you know, helping them and giving them options, which, you know, it shouldn't be that difficult to do, but just obviously women all over the world struggle with this. Like they have horrible pain or bad bleeding, fertility problems, hormone problems.

And they're just like, what do I do? You know, sometimes even if they see their gynecologist, they aren't getting the answers that they need or they're not kind of being taken seriously. People get told a lot. Well, you know, that's just periods, that's just menopause and that's the end of the road. And, you know, that kind of seeing all of that coincided with me starting up on social media like I honestly just started just to get word out that I was a doctor and, you know, come find me if you need a doctor, but it took off.

It really resonated with people who were looking for this information and not having other resources to turn to. And then the process of, like, I'm like, so famous. I'm not that famous. But, you know, but getting some degree of a platform on social media led to getting, you know, this opportunity to write a book.

And I've always been much more of a writer and a reader than a make videos on TikTok person. And so this is just much more of my alley. You know, up, up more in my whatever the expression is, uh, more up my alley to want to have something for the people who aren't online or, you know, like if you're online and you're on TikTok, you see one video about PCOS and you went, well, actually, I wonder about endometriosis now to have something all in one place to, to give them information.

And just like you said, it's actually, it's, it's not totally like an encyclopedia because it's not just like, here are some dry facts. It's about meeting people where they are and helping them navigate a system that is really not. Set up to, you know, make life easy, getting people the care they need. Uh, so, you know, to, to be a little bit more on that human level of, you know, it's not just, you feel these things, you do this treatment, but you know, what are you experiencing?

What struggles might you face? You know, how do you deal with this? How do you talk with your doctor and all of that? Wow. I mean, I think another lot. 

Zibby: No, no, no, it's great. I mean, I think another great use is, yes, of course, sometimes doctors don't take you seriously or you need multiple opinions, but I also think that even now I think women are embarrassed to talk about a lot of this stuff.

Yeah, right, and having to be face to face, like in the little paper robe on a, paper like for like bright lights. Yeah. I mean it's not exactly like the most conducive setting to like, right. Talking about what you're uncomfortable with. Especially when there's like a ticking clock like and leave in two minutes.

So anyway. Exactly. Now your book and your platform can anticipate questions and answer common questions and it's so interesting to me the sort of disaggregation, information in a, in a way that like someone like you classically educated, who's like a full on doctor can now like essentially have your own TV channel and just get the information out for free, for free for customers, which is amazing, right?

It's a great value proposition. 

Karen: So I came after, you know, Jen Gunter, Dr. Jen Gunter, Dr. Jennifer Lincoln, These people who kind of were like, you know, they're pioneers in, in this use of social media as an educational platform. And again, like, we're not like, you're like, let me tell you about like this groundbreaking study no one else has heard of.

This is just like, what is a tampon? Like, you know, what happens during a pap smear? How can you ask for the things that you need? And just like you said, because you might have 10 minutes with your doctor and you're in a gown, you feel really vulnerable. You may not feel comfortable. Like, well, actually I'm having a lot of problems with sex or I'm having like, you know, like this problem with my bladder urgency, you know, people have all these barriers to getting all of that. Whereas, you know, at home, they can be Instagram, whatever, YouTube, and be like, Oh my God, I can look up all of the things I've had questions about, which is, you know, plus and minus. It's good if you find a reliable source.

It's horrible if, you know, anybody right now with a microphone could be like, I just made up some bullshit. You know, and, and everyone is, has a hard time kind of sifting through what's real, what's just hype, what's somebody selling you like some shady supplements, you know, it's really hard to kind of, to tease apart and to find a reliable source.

And so, I mean, that's why it's, it's important to have people who have, you know, okay, here's my background here, my credentials, you know, here's why, you know, like you should, if not like take everything I say as if it's gospel, but just to be able to feel like I can trust it as much as, you know, you can trust any sort of a scientist.

Zibby: Yeah. I went, I went to my appointment last time, like armed with like TikTok facts. You know, I'm like, okay, well, this is what Mary Claire Haver said that I'm supposed to be doing now. Like, what do you think? And my doctor's like, wait, wait, wait. Like, but they don't know you, you know, I know you as your doctor.

So. 

Karen: Yes. And that's what, that's what we want people to do is that, you know, you take some of these bits of information, because obviously, and we say this all the time on social media, it's like no, social media doctor can tell you what's happening with you or what's best for you. It's just about like, here's some educational facts and then you take that and then you can hit the ground running when you talk with your doctor in the office.

And that's kind of, you know, what I say in the book is like, this is just a jumping off point. It's to, you know, like to understand your own experience, to learn some information about some of these things that could be applicable to you so that you can then have that conversation that's more personalized to your specific health and history and needs and you know, that sort of thing.

So. 

Zibby: So I did notice on Tik Tok, and usually I talk more about the book, but I'm fascinated by both, you know, like by both means of just, you know, I had a hysterectomy a long time ago, not that long, but I had a hysterectomy a while ago. And on your feed is like, this is like the inside of the video of like actual hysterectomy.

And so people must be. Like, why did you pin that? Are people totally fascinated? 

Karen: It was. It went crazy viral. That video on TikTok alone got 15 million views. I think it had like, like 200, 000 shares and people like went crazy over it. And I think it is because like most people were just like, what? These are the organs?

Like, no one's ever seen what a uterus even looks like, let alone like, oh, here's like a surgery, but I think most of the people being really shocked were like, I've never even seen, you know, because I point out not just the surgery part, but just like, here's the uterus, here are the ovaries, like, here's the rectum, the bladder, and, you know, just to see what your actual body looks like on the inside, people like, lost their minds, because like, I've never seen this, I'm 40 years old, I've never, you know, I never actually knew what my body looked like on the inside.

And this is where a lot of the videos that go viral on social media are like, people really surprised. Like, you know, like, Oh my God, like I've gotten to this point in my life. These are inside my body and I had no clue. You know, people picture like a little cartoon that looks like a little T. It doesn't look like that in real life.

And I think that kind of blew people's minds a little bit. And then it was very fun to see also like men's reactions to that video because people would like duet the video and show their face. Really? Oh my gosh. What is this? It was fun. I, I do say that for the book, for the social media, I, you know, I don't want it to be a women's only club, um, because it's so important, I think, for men to understand this too, like to know what all of this is like, to, to understand what half of the human population, you know, what, how their bodies work and the importance of the health and stuff like that.

So I, I actually appreciate a lot of my, my quote unquote, my fans are men, gay men. And like, they're, they're some of the most supportive ones around like this, like here's a video. Bye.

Zibby: So when I opened the book, I was like, okay, I'm sure there's going to be some personal health battle or something that Dr. Tang went through herself that propelled her to study or that, you know, what is that thing? So I didn't find that. So do you have a thing that made you want to be a doctor from a personal standpoint?

Was it more of an intellectual interest? Like where did this come from? And how does your own health play into your? 

Karen: Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know if anybody's ever asked me that, but so I've been really fortunate. Like, I'm one of those people who, you know, has very, it's very rare that someone kind of skates through life and hasn't had a major gynecologic problem, you know, but like all of us have had some of the questions in here.

So, you know, the, um, yeah. You know, like birth control or like, you know, I'm trying to get pregnant. It's taking a little while. Like what's going on? Is there something wrong with me? You know, I have three kids. I had two miscarriages, like one in between each kid. So I've been through, you know, miscarriage and, and it didn't take very long to get pregnant.

But every month when you're trying to get pregnant, it feels like an eternity. And early on, I, I knew I was, I had a passion for women's health and reproductive health. And you know, now actually I see a lot of patients who are transgender, transgender men. And so anybody who needs gynecologic care, but it.

It became really clear early on when I was like, oh, all of my projects, all of my, you know, like, like classes, like if we had electives that we could choose, it was all about like reproductive health, women's health. And, and some of it had to do with, uh, when anybody is like, what did you know early on? I was like, I knew nothing.

Like I, I'm, my parents are Taiwanese immigrants, Asian parents, for those of you out there who have immigrant parents, most of you like, you're not going to get any information about sex about periods about pregnancy nothing it's just basically just don't get pregnant before you're married and you know like blah blah blah so that's there's literally no information so i truly as like a kid like in middle school would just like go to the bookstore and like browse and like oh i would find like some whatever kind of our bodies ourselves or something like that and be like, I would like to learn about how periods work or I would like to learn about how pregnancy happens.

So truly just had to like teach myself and whatever tiny bit of information we got from health class. So I was in the shoes of a lot of people out there who didn't get a lot of this information from family, who didn't really get an amazing amount of information from school. And somehow it was supposed to be like, a functioning adult who understands their body and the bodily functions that you have to deal with.

So I think my own natural curiosity about that stuff translated to me then wanting to help people have an easier time getting that information. So again, I've always loved teaching. I've always loved explaining stuff that seems kind of complicated and breaking it down in a way that is easy to understand.

So I've loved that, you know, right from the second I started. residency, I found like teaching was one of my passions. And so, you know, that has carried on through basically all of the things that I do with social media, with the book. It's all about teaching. It's about like empowering people with knowledge in a way that is simple to grasp and, you know, that they can then make use of.

Zibby: So I had never really thought of social media as a teaching tool before. 

Karen: Oh, I didn't either. Yeah. I was just like, Oh, it's like that place that like the kids dance or like people post pictures of food, you know, that I was very skeptical. And I will say a friend of mine actually, so it was back back in like 2018 was when I started on Instagram because a friend of mine who does a lot of media, Jessica Shepard .

She's great. She was like, this is how patients get health information. Karen, wake up. And I had no idea because again, I wasn't really on social media, but it was where they were searching for information. And she was like, doctors are behind the times. Like we are missing out. And this became really clear in the COVID obviously with the pandemic that the medical establishment was like, What?

The people don't automatically believe everything we say if, you know, they believe some random people on Facebook and, you know, they distrust what the CDC and all the stuff are telling them and they believe some random guy who's telling you to take ivermectin. So I think a lot of us Uh, we're, we're caught unawares, especially if we were, you know, like elder millennial Gen X, whatever.

And I didn't kind of grow up with social media to realize how important it had become, um, and just the different uses of it, like, you know, creating communities, like that's actually another important one for health. Like so many. Women's health groups, um, endometriosis support groups, fertility support groups, kind of banded together on social media and found each other because they were all sort of so, you know, like it was such a struggle to, to get help that people kind of found each other on social media and helped each other.

So that was, again, I, I had no idea about all this stuff before a couple of years ago that there were such huge groups online of people searching for answers and, and, you know, being like, well, you know, the medical establishments kind of failed us, like, what do we do? And they help each other. So. 

Zibby: So there's a lot of noise out there about how to eat healthy and live healthy and live clean and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah from the women's health reproductive area thing.

This is, this is how I, you know, I'm like on a women's board like for women's health at Mount Sinai, and this is the best I can come up with as a second. Anyway, what should. 

Karen: We're all busy moms, we understand. Like there's times I forget, I've forgotten basic words. I'm like, what, what's that word? And I'll like, kind of like, wiggle my fingers like, you know, you know that thing.

And then say, no, I trust, trust me, I understand. But from a reproductive health perspective. Thank 

Zibby: you. There we go. From a reproductive health perspective, what should we do in terms of prevention? Like, is there anything we can be doing? in our very busy lives to protect against things that may or may not happen later.

Like, is there something we're not thinking about? Should everybody be taking supplements? Like, you know, how important is it to like go on a walk two days a week for, you know, for this area, your area of expertise, like what is the most, what are the most important things women could be doing? 

Karen: Oh man, that's so hard.

I gotta just pick a couple here. But yeah, there's a couple of different things. There's obviously, yeah, there's so, there's so much prevent, so much emphasis now on. you know, like certain aspects of exercise and nutrition. So, you know, like we hadn't really understood the importance of say like protein and fiber and exercise both, you know, just like some sort of like high intensity exercise where you are getting your heart health and then also strength training.

Like I think a lot of us. Yeah. Uh, you know, growing up, quote unquote, we're all about like, Oh, you got to do like a bunch of cardio and just watch your calories. And that was like, sort of it, like nobody really kind of went too much deeper, even in medical training and now kind of understanding the importance of, you know, like strength training, building muscle, especially for perimenopause menopause.

That's been such a big thing recently. People saying, well, how can I keep my body healthy going into menopause and just realizing you need to like, you know, like prevent. you know, both muscle and bone loss and exercise weights, you know, that sort of thing. And yeah, just like, you know, having that balanced diet, that's not just about like starving yourself, but you know, watching nutrition, making sure your body has what it needs.

I think most people will say that, you know, you don't have to take a fancy supplements. If you can get nutrition through your food, that is best. So, you know, um, not only just like vitamins, protein fiber, but also things like, you know, like calcium, vitamin D protecting your bones. Um, there's a lot of stuff on like, you know, like vitamin D.

deficiency and how important that is. I'm like, I'm like, Oh wait, I think I'm supposed to be taking this. I know, right? I'm like, Oh shoot, not going to add magnesium to this. So, and I tell people like, you know, don't make it, it's become like its own like source of stress. Like people now are like, Oh God, I forgot to, you know, do this supplement or this vitamin.

Uh, you know, have I ruined my fertility, you know, whatever it is. It's rarely that it's all about just trying to kind of like find what is helpful in a way that's. So it's same thing with exercise, like, you know, if people are like, Oh, I'm going to go and like, join like this trendy gym, but then like, you're a busy mom, like you don't have time and you're like, Oh, I've just paid a million dollars, like for this membership that I never use.

Cause it's like inconvenient for my life. And so I was, when I tell people in the office that, You have to find something that fits your life and you have to find something that you will be able to sustain in a way that is, you know, not just like healthy, but also like that you enjoy that it brings some value to your life.

So you find the exercise that you're like going to look forward to and want to keep in your schedule. You know, it's going to make you want to either stay up a little bit later, wake up a little bit earlier, fit it in, schedule it in. And that's kind of. What I usually recommend as a doctor is, you know, you find the things, we give you all these recommendations, but you find how to make it work with your life.

And then obviously, like, preventative health is so important, you know, in, you mentioned the pandemic, it feels like it was a long time ago, but, you know, it's, it was, there was a couple years, like, people didn't get their mammograms or their PAPs, because they're like, oh, you know, we're all, Like we're all quarantining and then like got busy and then maybe a few more years passed.

So I've had a lot of people who've been like, it's been like six years since I had like a mammogram or a GYN exam. It's never too late. So very important preventative care, you know, getting your cancer screenings, you know, getting your routine checkups, your cholesterol checks, like all of that is so important.

Don't put down the back burner. Like people kind of think like, oh, you know, if I'm not like, Like, you know, falling apart, I can wait a little bit longer. It's always important to, you know, try and keep your body as healthy as it can with preventative health rather than waiting until it's really, there's, there's issues.

Zibby: Excellent advice. 

Karen: Yeah.

Zibby: Was there something that didn't fit into the book or you thought was just a little too tangential or whatever, but you wish you could have found a place for it? What was that? 

Karen: Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, that's a good one. You know, so the book, uh, and I kind of said right in the beginning, I'm like, there's obviously got to be limits because otherwise the book would be like a million pages long.

Like you got to kind of cut it off somewhere. And I, I don't take care of pregnant patients. So I don't do obstetrics. I don't like do prenatal care deliveries. And so a lot of people would ask, you know, like, what about this about like pregnancy or childbirth? And unfortunately I'm like, you know, I just know that I'm not the person to write that book, but I have, you know, some friends, Jen Lincoln, like I said, they, they have books coming down the pipeline about.

Pregnancy care and that sort of thing. I will say, kind of tossing around ideas for future books, I have a chapter in the book on history because I feel like it's really important to understand where this all came from. Like, how did it get to be that women's health was so bad? Like, like it didn't come out of nowhere.

It came out of some sort of like a cultural historical context. So I did want to kind of like just, you know, touch on that and, and draw some parallels between, you know, like ancient Greeks and like Freud and, and you know, what, what happened to like various groups of women over time and where we are today.

Obviously that chapter had to be pretty brief, but there's so many good books on history, you know, like the, um. You That like several that come out in the last couple of years that have touched on that. So I was saying it was like, you know, if I had to come up with like a fun future book, I said it was going to be like sex.

It was going to be like history of sex. It's going to be like, you know, a chapter on each topic. Like, you know, how did people prevent, like, you know, what was birth control in ancient Egyptian times and ancient Greek times? You know, what about. Like, you know, like, uh, like polygamy, like, not polygamy, but like, um, you know, like people who are not monogamous.

What about sex work? Yeah. What about, you know, like queer history? So just like all these kind of just interesting things, I think, I think it's super fascinating. And then just, you know, tying that to kind of how things are today. So just like really kind of diving into like the very interesting history and fascinating stories about.

you know, life in the past and, and stuff like that. So just, I was like, I thought that'd be kind of fun. Obviously this book, we can, you couldn't go into all of that, but next book, we'll find out. 

Zibby: And did you just quickly write this or what was the process? 

Karen: Oh God. It took a year. 

Zibby: Did you just put this out on the side?

Karen: I was just like, I was very blase about it. I will tell you, you know, for, for those of you who don't know the world of nonfiction as well, we don't sell the book, uh, fully formed, like novels are sold. So we sell them on, uh, proposals, which we, you know, basically like, you know, like here's like, My idea.

Here's like, you know, my outline and my, my thoughts. And I was like, Oh, you know, I can write this in like three, four months. Like it's what I talk about at work. I make these videos, like how much time could it possibly take? And I forgot that, you know, I'm not a professional author by training. And so I would need to have my editor help me actually.

Write it well and shape it and reshape it a million times. You're obviously an author, you know, and there are some chapters we wrote, rewrote. We must have rewritten like eight times. Like we really ripped them apart and put them back together. And, you know, certain chapters like like abortion or gender affirming care that we really scrutinize because there's going to be so much emphasis on those.

Like if somebody was going to be like, oh, you know, like I don't love this argument or, you know, here's like a weakness in what you're saying, like people are really going to kind of like. scrutinize those chapters. So, uh, I was still working full time at the time. I, working full time as a doctor, I have the three kids.

Uh, I literally wrote the book in, like, random hours overnight when my kids were sleeping. I would, my, my poor husband was a saint. Like, he took the kids on the weekends. I would go to a hotel and I would just write for nine hours. Each day, just, just cranking out, like, you know, writing, editing, revising, all of that.

And it was, it definitely showed me like how much insane amount of work goes into putting together a finished traditionally published book. It was just quite an education for me. But like I said, I was like, I was so casual. I was like, thanks, three, four months, whatever. And it took like a full year to write, rewrite, edit, you know, before it was finally like ready to print.

So it's quite a process. Yeah. 

Zibby: Yeah. And yet you're ready to do it again. I know, right? Once it's done, right? 

Karen: And of course, like, you know, like fiction authors will spend like five, ten years. I mean, obviously, like, like, countless, you know, more iterations of revisions and stuff like that. So it really made me appreciate, you know, professional authors.

Bless. I, I am very impressed with, with people do this, like, as their, their full career. 

Zibby: So now that you are a published author, yourself, in addition to all your other feats, do you have any advice for people who want for those trying to tackle a similar project. 

Karen: Oh, all right. That's a great question. I would say, you know, because it is such a process, and there are so many hurdles and like kind of like levels of gatekeeping, it is very difficult.

And, uh, but just to be motivated by, you know, Who your, your future readers will be and the message that they need to hear and why you're the right one to give them that message. So, you know, now that I'm on this side and I'm seeing reviews and it's so powerful. Like, I mean, people are like, Oh, I'm, I can't believe I, I, if I had this book when I like 20 years ago, I could have been saved so much suffering, or I'm going to give this book to my daughter because I don't want her to go through what I did, struggling to get information or to get help.

You know, or people said like, Oh, like I, it finally helped me understand my own body and feel more in control. And so, I mean, that's so powerful. Even if you reach like five people, like, you know, that's, it's potentially changed their lives. And I think that's incredible. It's, it's, it's worth. Like to us, it seems like, oh, it's, it's, it's quite a, like, um, you know, it's, it's a struggle, but it's really not, it's fine.

Like it, it is an enjoyable process, even though we just made it sound really stressful. It's stressful, but in a fun way. And uh, if we're privileged enough to, to be able to publish these books, uh, especially traditional publishing, big five publisher, like, I mean, that is, it's like. You know, winning a gold medal just in and of itself.

You're like, wow, I can't believe I did that. You know, if you get to that point, it is such a privilege. And, and then just to, you know, um, I think authors who do get the book published then are like, oh, there's a whole other phase of the work, which is getting the book out there, doing podcasts, trying to, you know, help people understand that the book is there.

exists. It is a lot of work too. And I know a lot of authors get really discouraged at that part. They feel like, Oh my God, I'm an author. I'm not like a social media person. I'm not, you know, like a marketing expert or publicist. Like what am I doing like this? And it is, it is a struggle that that I will say is definitely a struggle.

It's no sugarcoating it, but it, it is something that hopefully people will find a way that is natural for them. That's, helps to get the book into the hands that needs to get into. So for me, you know, social media, like I've kind of found, you know, my place and using that as, as a way to reach people, you know, but you don't have to like become a social media person.

You could, you know, whatever your community is. I tell people like everyone has a community in some way and you have a way of connecting with people in that, you know, whether it's local groups, whether it's, you know, word of mouth, whether it's in your professional society, it just, there's some way that you can connect with people that, you know, would resonate with this message or need this message.

So just kind of find that and don't feel like, Oh my God, I got to become a Tik TOK master, which I belong to a group of 20, 24 debut authors. And like, everyone was literally like, Oh my God, I feel like I have to learn Tik TOK now. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Like you don't, you don't have to, if you want to, it's great, but it's not something that you must do.

If you're an author, I'm not sure how many people out there are, are authors and have felt that way, but don't feel that way. Okay. It's there to serve you if you need it. If it doesn't serve you, don't even bother. It's too stressful. 

Are you on TikTok? I don't actually 

Zibby: You know what? You're actually, this whole conversation has totally inspired me because I had never thought about TikTok as a teaching tool and like I have so many classes that I was thinking like maybe I'd want to teach but maybe I could just like do one video, chop it up and like post it as an exchange.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. 

Zibby: Right? Yeah you could. 

Karen: Or YouTube. If you like the, like, YouTube is huge. It's like, uh, apparently one of, like, the biggest search engines. Like, if people are, like, searching for a topic, like YouTube apparently. And it lives forever. It's easier to find stuff. It just takes a long time to make YouTube videos.

I'll just say, uh, anybody out there who's tried to make a YouTube video it takes a long time, so I'm just, Lazier and, uh,

Zibby: I search YouTube for everything. I'm like, Oh yeah. Like I locked myself out of the car. Like, why won't my car door close? Let me watch a video and I'll be like on the sidewalk. Well, how do I close the stroller?

How do I like do anything? Exactly. It's always there, you know? 

Karen: Exactly. Yes. And there's a great, like, I think a lot of YouTube's on, on, on books and writing and publishing, like all that stuff. 

Zibby: Yeah. I should do that. In my spare time. I will. 

Karen: Right. Exactly. Between running your four businesses. 

Zibby: I'll get into that.

No. We're all so busy. All of us. Everybody's busy. Okay. It's Not Hysteria. Thank you so much. I am, you know, very indebted on behalf of all the women and men and everybody who will benefit from your knowledge and your dispersion of information. Very grateful. 

Karen: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. 

Zibby: Okay. Thanks for the time.